• Chapter Twenty-one 醒 — Awakenings — a Voice from Young China on the Duty to Rebel, 14 November 2022
• Chapter Twenty-two 官逼民反 — Fear, Fury & Protest — three years of viral alarm, 27 November 2022
• Appendix XXIII 空白 — How to Read a Blank Sheet of Paper, 30 November 2022
• Appendix XXIV 職責— It’s My Duty, 1 December 2022
• Appendix XXV 贖 — ‘Ironic Points of Light’ — acts of redemption on the blank pages of history, 4 December 2022
• Appendix XXVII 謔— When Zig Turns Into Zag the Joke is on Everyone, 12 December 2022

See also:

• Li Yuan, ‘I Will Keep Fighting’: China’s Protesters Say It’s Bigger Than Covid, The New York Times, 9 December 2022
• Li Yuan, Proud, Scared and Conflicted. What the China Protesters Told Me., The New York Times, 29 November 2022; and,
• 袁莉，那些年輕的抗議者：我們為什麼要上街，《不明白播客》，2022年11月29日
• Twitter：@bumingbaipod

— Geremie R. Barmé, Editor, China Heritage
Distinguished Fellow, Asia Society
10 December 2022

---

***

A Glimmer of Hope

from a Q&A with Li Yuan

Jeremy Goldkorn

 

Q: Most of the time I was in China — I moved there in 1995 — there was this sense that the government was pulling out of people’s private lives. It wasn’t telling you where to live. It wasn’t assigning you a work unit after college or deciding who you could marry. But COVID put the government back into people’s lives in a way that young people had never really experienced.

A: Yeah. That’s exactly what people have been telling me. I’m still interviewing people because it’s amazing. We all know how difficult it has become to interview Chinese people since COVID, right? Well, since 2019, and especially since COVID. But there are so many people who want to talk to me. They want to share their thoughts, their stories. I just heard from a protester who told me, “Oh, I might find the one just during the protest.” They want to share every detail with me.

But they all said the same thing; they said, “I did not pay attention to politics before the pandemic. I didn’t really care because I knew the government wouldn’t care about my opinions.” But right after the Shanghai lockdown, I talked to a software programmer. He wrote an ebook after the Shanghai lockdown. He said he went abroad, he studied abroad, and he moved back to China, and he was earning a decent salary. Typical middle-class Chinese, and never cared about politics, never talked about politics with his friends. And then the Shanghai lockdown, he felt that he lost complete control of his life, and he was so depressed. He did not know — how could this happen? He started asking questions. That happened to many, many people. Many people realize the government has too much control there; too much control over their lives and now they’re asking questions — why and how much control they should give to the government.

Q: Being imprisoned in your own apartment, that’ll do it for you, I guess.

What about signs of solidarity with Uyghurs? I found one of the interesting slogans that we heard in Shanghai was “We’re all Xinjiang people.” That seems quite unusual in a country where, generally speaking, there hasn’t been a lot of sympathy on the part of most Han Chinese for Muslim minorities and Uyghurs.

A: I actually heard a lot from protesters how they changed their opinions about the Xinjiang policy, about the Hong Kong young people.

Remember they used to call the Hong Kong protesters fèi qīng 廢青, wasted youth. And they did not believe there were concentration camps in Xinjiang, and they thought the New York Times and other foreign media just made up those stories. But I heard from protesters, again and again, that now they really admire Hong Kong protesters. They’re reaching out. They’re actually watching documentaries of Hong Kong protesters and trying to learn how they protested, how they protected their identity.

[Note: On the ‘wasted youth’ fèi qīng 廢青of Hong Kong and 2019-2020 protests, see Hong Kong Apostasy, in particular, A Summer of Blood and Tears — according to six Hong Kong high-school students, China Heritage, 9 September 2019.]

And then they also realize that they should be more sympathetic to the Uyghurs. One protester told me that if they could do what they did to Uyghurs and they could do to us. She realized that they…I wrote a column [in March] about how Shanghai was being Xinjianged, right? At that time, some people were like, “Oh, you are exaggerating.” Now people are thinking that they should have two phones — one they can use at home with all the foreign apps and VPNs, and maybe they should carry another one when they go out, which is exactly what happened to many people in Xinjiang, right? It’s just so scary.

Some of my Chinese friends said when the iron face of the government falls to you, then you’ll realize what it’s like to be persecuted or to be the victim. I think it’s unfortunate that many people didn’t realize this until they suffered personally from some cruel policies. But I think it’s still encouraging. This young generation, I think many of them grew up in a very controlled internet environment. And also, the indoctrination at schools is unbelievable. …

Q: So does this make you hopeful?

A: To be honest, I don’t know how hopeful we should be. But still, so many of my friends cried, people of my age. I admit I cried quite a bit, just watching, I choked up quite a bit watching those videos because for many people, for many of my friends, we had been feeling that the darkness was complete, was overwhelming. We believed that the younger generation were mostly the little pinks, and that there was no hope for China to ever become a little bit free. They saw they would have to live in the darkness for another 20 years, 30 years, maybe. [All they could hope for] was to outlive Xi Jinping.

Now, even though we don’t know what’s going to happen, people see a little bit of hope, a little bit of light, even if it’s very distant.

— from Jeremy Goldkorn, After the protests, a glimmer of hope, The China Project, 9 December 2022

***

We Are the Same Person
我們是同一個人

— a music video featuring the lyrics of ‘Bring Me to Life’ by Evanescence

***

In and Out of Custody

From an Interview by Li Yuan with a Shanghai Protester

那些年輕的抗議者：被捕之後

不明白播客
一起探尋真理與答案

袁莉

9 December 2022

Translated & annotated by Geremie R. Barmé

[For the full Chinese text of this conversation, see here.]

Li Yuan was able to locate one of the young people involved in the Shanghai protests. Up to this point in the interview, the focus of the discussion has been on the detention, booking and overnight incarceration of the protester.

As Yuan reported:

‘One of the protesters who was detained said her blood had been drawn, her irises scanned and her phone taken away. She was ordered to take all her clothes off for a body cavity search. The experience left her fearful. Still, she shared her experience on my Chinese podcast, so others would know what to expect.’

— trans.

***

Li Yuan: So about what time did you get home?

Protester: It must have been around 7:00 or 8:00 on the morning of the 28th.

Yuan: That would make it about twenty-four hours after you’d been taken to the police station, right?

Protester: That’s right. Add that to the time I’d spent on the bus after they nabbed me, altogether they held me for about twenty-seven hours.

Li Yuan: And that experience left you pretty much feeling traumatized.

Protester: That’s right.

Li Yuan: What did you do after you got home?

Protester: I slept the whole day. I couldn’t move. After we’d all been lined up, I ended up sleeping on the bare floor next to a young female student. It left me aching all over. It also felt as though I’d gone through some kind of emotional grinder. I’d had a panic attack, I mean I was in a state of high agitation all the time I was in the cells and it left me completely drained, like a computer after a system collapse. Then I had seen some of the people they brought in after us were even younger — just teenagers. One of them was a seventeen year old boy. I couldn’t be entirely certain that they were adolescents, but I felt they couldn’t possibly be held responsible for anything. Maybe they [the police] were parading them before us as a kind of intimidation.

Li Yuan: They wanted to scare you so that you’d never do anything like that again.

Protester: Yeah.

Li Yuan: What about your parents? Did they take it out on you when they saw the state you were in?

Protester: Mine are the kind of parents who just want you to ‘keep quiet and focus on making lots of money’. They don’t want to see me getting involved in this kind of thing. Of course, they also want me to be safe.

Li Yuan: As anyone’s parents would.

Protester: I’ve been telling them about what’s really happening in China for quite a while now and my dad even seemed to be getting it. Sometimes, he even argues with his work colleagues about things. As for my mother, she’s just really worried about me and really doesn’t want me getting mixed up in things. She’s always been scared that the police would be on my case, and I get it, I mean, when this finally happened I had to explain to them exactly why I had acted the way I did. All in all, it was exhausting.

袁莉：那你回家的時候大概幾點了，你知道嗎？
受訪者：我回家的時候，嗯，就是28號嘛，早上也是七八點的時候。
袁莉：嗯，那就是從你到那個警局然後到你出來是24小時，是吧？
受訪者：對對。就是（加上）被抓上（車）的話可能有27、28個小時。
袁莉：你就是非常的traumatized。
受訪者：嗯，對。
袁莉：然後你回到家裡面做了什麼？
受訪者：我睡了一整天。我實在是動都動不了了。因為在那邊後來排排坐之後，就是我跟一個女生就躺在地上睡了，然後整個人渾身酸痛。然後精神上我也受了不少折磨。我在裡面就是有一點panic attack，就是一直在驚恐發作，所以回來以後就真的很累，就是整個人宕機了那種感覺。對我來說就是，後來被抓進來的新人有幾個是未成年。我看到了十七歲的男孩子。就是我，我都不確定他們未成年，是不是沒有這個能力去承擔這個責任。他們（警察）可能就還是想威懾我們一下。
袁莉：就是嚇唬一下，以後就不要去了。
受訪者：嗯。
袁莉：然後你爸媽呢？你爸媽怎麼看你這樣子，他們有沒有責怪你？
受訪者：我爸媽其實都是比較主張「悶聲發大財」的人，就是他們希望我不要是摻合這個事情，當然也是為了我人身安全著想。
袁莉：對父母來說，肯定是。
受訪者：但是長久來說，我也一直跟他們說國內的狀況，我爸其實被我有點說動了，他也跟這個他的同事有在爭執這些事情。嗯，我媽就是真的很擔心我，她覺得我不應該去這些，然後，嗯，也一直很擔心警察會再找我的麻煩，我也理解，但是就是呃，這樣一天下來，還要跟他們解釋為什麼要做這些事情，也蠻累的。

Li Yuan: Can you say a few words about your motivation?

Protester: Sure. For me, it’s summed up in that expression: ‘It’s our duty.’ It’s such a reasonable way of putting it. There are lots of people — like those who died in the Urumqi apartment fire — who’ve never had a chance to speak out. We do have an opportunity, so I feel that we are duty-bound to raise our voices.

[Note: For more on ‘It’s our duty’, see Awakenings — a Voice from Young China on the Duty to Rebel, 14 November 2022; and, It’s My Duty, 1 December 2022]

Li Yuan: Okay, so you feel it is your ‘duty’ to speak out on their behalf.

Protester: That’s right. We really are a ‘community of shared destiny’. I believe that you should speak out whenever you know one of our number is suffering.

[Note: The formulation ‘community of shared destiny’ 人類命運共同體 is a key element of Xi Jinping’s foreign policy. See Shared Destiny: China Story Yearbook 2014. The term pre-dated Xi Jinping, appearing as the ‘community of common destiny’ in General Secretary Hu Jintao’s report to the Eighteenth Congress of the Chinese Communist Party.]

Li Yuan: So, that’s specific to the coronavirus epidemic? That’s to say, you were joining other people who’d taken to the streets to protest against the restrictions and lockdowns. Or were there other specific or more complex reasons for your protest?

Protester: Yeah, well, sure, that was one reason … But, when people held up all of those blank sheets of paper it reflected the fact that people had a range of grievances. Despite that, somehow we all collectively knew that we were protesting one particular thing: you could call it ‘totalitarianism’ — the system that had imposed all of these extreme restrictions on us.

Some people just wanted to go to a movie, or to enjoy a basic sense of freedom, some … However, we were united in the desire to overthrow the same thing. That’s what, for me, was the most important message behind all the blank pages.

[Note: See How to Read a Blank Sheet of Paper, 30 November 2022.]

Yuan Li: So, ‘to overthrow the same thing’, what thing, exactly?

Protester: The state of totalitarian control; the limitless term in power [now enjoyed by Xi Jinping], the revisions to the Constitution [in 2018]. No single individual should be able to amass so much power. When they do, they feel that they can say whatever they want and get away with it. For example, recently, there’s that view [expressed unofficially] that the policy of ‘dynamic covid restrictions’ [a keynote policy of Xi Jinping] was actually a plot cooked up by hostile foreign forces [aimed at fostering chaos in China]. But, up until a few days before that, weren’t the authorities denouncing people for being too lax and ‘giving up’? [That, too, at the time was blamed on the machinations of foreign forces]. Honestly, it all really screws with your head.

Li Yuan: That’s right, it’s the kind of logic expressed in that line ‘war is peace and peace is war’ [from George Orwell’s novel 1984]. Everything can change at the drop of a hat.

[Note: For more on this subject, see Isaiah Berlin, et al, ‘Xi Jinping’s China & Stalin’s Artificial Dialectic’, China Heritage, 10 June 2021.]

Protester: Exactly. So, I simply don’t think a person like that — one who can distort facts on a whim, or turn on a dime and reverse their previous position with impunity — should have such power.

Li Yuan: Yet they don’t think that the problem lies with them at all.

Protester: How can they not take responsibility for something they’ve pursued for so long and then pretend, all of a sudden, that we have to accept their new line without question?

袁莉：對，我能問一下你為什麼要做這個事情？
受訪者：嗯，我覺得就真的像他們說的，It’s  our duty，是一個蠻理所當然的事情。可能有很多人像烏魯木齊被燒死的人呀，他們沒有發聲的機會了，就是我們有這個機會的話，肯定是要為這些人發聲。
袁莉：對，你的duty，你的職責就是要為這些人發聲。
受訪者：對，就是我們其實都是命運共同體。我認為我們人在受苦的話就是要說出來。
袁莉：嗯，那是主要是疫情的這個事情嗎，主要的原因是疫情的這個事情嗎？就是剛才我前面提到的，就是說，你覺得大家上街是主要因為這個疫情的封控呢，還是因為更多的、更複雜的原因呢？
受訪者：嗯，它這是一個……大家都舉白紙嘛，所以其實每個人的訴求都是不一樣的，但是我們知道我們想要對抗的東西基本上都一樣，就是可能是極權，然後就是這樣一個極端封控的情況啊。有些人可能想看電影，有些要自由，有些……但是，呃，我們想推翻的事情都是一樣的。我覺得這就是白紙最大的意義。
袁莉：呃，推翻的事情都是一樣的，就是什麼呢？
受訪者：就可能這樣一個極權統治的狀況，然後無限連任、修改憲法。一個人不應該有這麼大的權利。而且他們也想到什麼就說什麼，就是比如說，呃，現在有一個論點說是支持動態清零的是境外勢力，就前幾天還是支持躺平的是境外勢力呢？我真的，說什麼是什麼，我看的覺得境外勢力都一頭霧水。
袁莉：對，就是War is peace, peace is war.戰爭就是和平，和平就是戰爭。就是看你在什麼時候想說什麼了。
受訪者：是啊，所以這樣一個，我覺得有這樣能力隨便歪曲事實，或者隨便修改自己之前的立場的這個能力，我覺得也是完全就不應該有的。
袁莉：但是他就是完全不覺得他自己有什麼問題。
受訪者：我覺得做了這麼久的事情，怎麼著也得負一下責任，不能說一改口之前就沒有了。

Li Yuan: It seems to be something about your particular generation [of people in their twenties] that, although you’ve never shown much of an interest in politics in such, you seem to share a certain kind of earnestness, isn’t that so? It seems to manifest itself in regard to something like expecting people to tell the truth. It would appear that this simply hasn’t occurred to the power-holders.

Protester: That’s right. Like for us — we’ve always had to watch what we say. I’ve had so many things deleted from my Weibo accounts; I’ve had eight accounts shut down, and that’s without having said anything all that radical. Maybe it happened because I covertly hinted at or alluded to things, or because I reposted some things by other people that ended up being censored. Then, you just never know when you might actually disappear yourself. You see so much stuff like that, unpredictable stuff, and it has become normalised. That’s how come that, despite the fact that I have a strong urge to express myself, I had to repress it for so long.

Li Yuan: Can you give me a few examples of the kinds of things that resulted in your Weibo accounts being closed down, like the Chained Woman [discovered in a village in Jiangsu in February 2022]?

Protester: I can’t really give you any examples. There’s been too many over too long a period.

Li Yuan: Okay, I understand. Yesterday, when I was talking to a female student at Nanjing Communications University [where the Blank Page Rebellion first erupted] she told me that just about everyone in her dorm had their Weibo accounts shut down or deleted at one time or another. When I asked her what were the reasons she also said she couldn’t remember any of the exact issues, just that for some inexplicable reason or other they had been cancelled.

Protester: That’s exactly it. It might happen when you are re-posting lots of things on a day when a lot is going on. When you suddenly get cancelled there’s no what of knowing exactly triggered the censors. All they tell you is that your account was in breach of the relevant laws and regulations. But exactly which laws, what regulations? They never respond.

Li Yuan: Yes, I get it. You seem as though you’ve thought about it. Can I ask you what your main point of disagreement or contention with the system is? What is it precisely?

Protester: In the end, I think it comes down to free speech. Yeah, in my case. you see, I’m one of those people who has a natural urge, a compulsion to express themselves. So, even though they have kept shutting me down, I was undaunted. I’d just go and get myself a new Weibo account so I could keep expressing myself. Over time, I came to realise that freedom of expression is a basic right. But they’re always on the lookout for any hint of anything untoward. It’s absurd the way they are constantly policing everyone. They want us to shut up. Even now, when people hold up blank pieces of paper they still want to make us keep our mouths shut. But, by using those blank pages everyone knows exactly what you really mean to say.

[Note: Intensified policing and censoring of speech 禁言 jìn yán has been a leitmotif of Xi Jinping’s ‘new era’. It reached new heights from the silencing of the whistleblower Dr Li Wenliang at the beginning of the covid epidemic in late 2019. See, for example, ‘The innocent cry to Heaven. The odour of such a state is felt on high.’, China Heritage, 1 October 2020.]

Li Yuan: So you’d actually rehearsed the script in your head many times over.

Protester: That’s right. The blank sheets were inspired by that old Soviet joke, one in which a policemen asks a guy why he’s holding up a blank sheet of paper and the fellow replies, everyone knows why.

[Note: The joke goes:

A man hands out leaflets on Red Square, and the KGB arrest him. But when they get him to the station, they find that the leaflets are all blank. And he says, ‘Well, everyone knows what the problem is, so why bother writing it down?’]

Li Yuan: I haven’t seen what you posted on Weibo but do you think of yourself as being a particularly political person? Do you tend to express your political views online? Or have you been more interested in commenting on current affairs and controversial issues like women’s rights, the Chained Woman and the Tangshan Incident?

Protester: I think I’ve been more interested in that kind of topical social issue, as well as the question of democracy, broadly defined. I find politics as such too much to deal with. It’s a subject that for people who have no vote, like me, is very frustrating.

Li Yuan: So, you’re telling me that your eight Weibo accounts weren’t cancelled because of what you were saying about politics per se?

Protester: That’s right. I’ve never really posted anything overtly political. If I did, it would be instantly deleted. In the Chinese context anything even vaguely radical is instantly censored. The things that people like me want to express are far more prosaic: like speaking up when we learn of someone being hurt or being badly done by. Or, we re-post material that we’ve seen online.

Li Yuan: I understand. I saw a video clip today in which people were chanting a simple slogan: ‘Give us back our normal lives!’ It really got to me.

Protester: Yup.

Li Yuan: Such a modest demand.

Protester: That’s the case for us. I know that overseas people sometimes go and demonstrate because they don’t want to do a certain kind of job. But here, people have taken to the streets demanding the right to go back to the jobs they already have.

Li Yuan: Yes, indeed.

Protester: People have been chanting: ‘Let us go back to work!’ It’s such a modest demand. Just let us make a living, but the authorities won’t even give in to people who [ironically] are agitating to get back to work so they can be exploited ‘996’ [that is, working 9:00 am to 9:00 pm, six days, or 72 hours, a week].

袁莉：對，這事是挺有意思的。我覺得你們這代年輕人，就是說他們可能沒有想到的是，你們可能以前沒有那麼關心政治，但你們挺認真的，是吧？你們覺得人還是要說實話的。
受訪者：對，就我們也是啊，一直以來在這兒被捂嘴。然後我在微博被刪掉、被炸掉的號有八個了。而且我都沒有說過比較激進的事情，可能就是大家進行一些暗示啊，還有轉發一些別人的禁語。就是不知道什麼時候就整個人都消失，但是已經司空見慣了。所以這個被積壓的一種表達的慾望也是很久了。
袁莉：那你能說一下就比如說在鐵鍊女的事情上，你有沒有微博被封過，就是你能說幾個事情嗎？
受訪者：嗯，說真的我都記不清了，因為太久了。
袁莉：對對對，我昨天也和一個南傳的一個女大學生，她跟我說，她說他們宿舍的人幾乎都被刪過微博的號。我問她你們說了什麼（被刪號）？她說我也記不清楚了，就不知道為什麼，就莫名其妙就沒有了。
受訪者：對的。因為可能那一天就是發生了很多事情，然後每個事情轉發一條，最後炸號的時候也不知道是因為哪一條。他們會說你的帳號違反了相關法律法規。你說到底哪條法律法規呢？你問他也不會告訴你。
袁莉：是的，是的，我覺得你想的還挺細緻，那我能問一下，就是說從你個人來說，你和這個政權最不搭的，就這政權和你最大的衝突點是什麼？在哪一個地方呢？
受訪者：我覺得可能就是言論自由吧。嗯，我是，我就是很有表達欲的一個人，然後就算我一直被刪，我也會繼續開新號去說我想的事情。然後就我覺得還是很基本的一個權利，然後因為這點事情捕風捉影的就一直在讓我們閉嘴，真的是很可笑。就像現在舉白紙也是就想讓我們閉嘴了，我們想說什麼其實大家都知道。
袁莉：你們都在心裡說了很多遍了。
受訪者：對。這個白紙，其實它的起源起來是那個蘇聯笑話嘛，就是有個人去舉白紙，警察問他，你為什麼要舉白紙？他就說，其實要說什麼大家都知道呀。袁莉：我沒有看過你的微博的那個內容。就是說你認為你是一個關注政治的人嗎？就比如說你在微博上，你會對政治的這些事情有表達呢？還是你更多的是對一些平時的（事情），比如說像女權啊，鐵鍊女，唐山事件這些事情，對社會事件表達得更多一些？
受訪者：嗯，我覺得是我是比較關注社會事件比較多，關注民生多一點。就是政治，我覺得對我來說太複雜了，而且就是我們這個，我們也沒有投票權，所以就是瞭解它的話，其實就是心塞而已。
袁莉：所以你們其實都不是（講）政治的這些東西，是吧，都被刪了八個號了。
受訪者：對對對，我真的沒有發過任何政治相關的東西。如果真的發了這個，真的是秒刪了。這個比較激進了，就是在國內社交媒體上來說。對，我們其實表達的訴求都蠻基本的，就是有人受到傷害的時候，我們會發聲或者是轉發一些東西。
袁莉：對。我今天看了一個視頻，我聽到裡面人喊的口號，我覺得特別的心酸，因為他說：還我正常生活。
受訪者：對。
袁莉：我覺得這是多麼卑微的一個要求啊。
受訪者：就我，我就是，也有看到有人說，別的國家人上街是為了不工作，我們上街是為了工作。
袁莉：是是是。
受訪者：大家都在喊：我們要復工。這太卑微了，就是想工作賺錢，996都不讓。

Li Yuan: That’s the slogan I heard today. It really made me tear up. Heavens, I thought to myself, it’s such a basic demand. So, let me ask you, the slogans that were being chanted that night at Urumqi Middle Road were pretty much on the radical side. They reached a crescendo with: ‘Down with the Communist Party! Xi Jinping Get Out!’ At the time, did these strike you as being extreme?

Protester: Actually, I didn’t, though I was pretty taken aback when everyone started chanting along. A lot of us might think things like that to ourselves, but who’d ever dare voice such thoughts? Once in a subtweet I added a note in which I said that I don’t like this country, then it was re-posted by someone and I was attacked  for being a member of the ‘Hate-China Party’

[Note: ‘Hate China Party’ 恨國黨 hèn guó dǎng, a broad term of abuse used to silence ‘people who hate their country’, as opposed to those who love China, 愛國黨 aì guó dǎng].

Li Yuan: Though that’s not true, right? It’s just that you don’t like the way the country is.

Protester: Right. I might hope that it will change, but that doesn’t automatically mean that I hate it. Like the protests this time, a lot of the young people sang the national anthem; we were using the most patriotic form of protest to express our demands. We didn’t even dare sing The Internationale since we knew we might be accused of promoting those ‘foreign forces’.

Li Yuan: Aren’t the Communists the ones who introduced The Internationale to China in the first place?

Protester: We sang ‘Stand up! Those who refuse to be slaves!’ [the opening lines] from the Chinese national anthem.

Li Yuan: That’s right. Then let me ask this: are you afraid? How have you felt since they let you go? What kind of emotional state have you been in?

Protester: Frankly, I’m still pretty much in state of shock. Remember I told you that I’d posted news that I’d been detained on Weibo the night I was detained? After sleeping for a day after getting out, the police turned up at our place and ordered me to delete that post. After that encounter, I realise that I’ve become a bit of a nervous wreck. I really don’t want to see anything more of the police.

Li Yuan: So, it’s the thought of a knock on the door that sets your nerves on edge?

Protester: A little. It was all quite a big deal for me.

Li Yuan: But you’re still posting things on Twitter and you’ve allowed me to interview you. Doesn’t all of that also make you scared?

Protester: Yeah, sure. But being scared can only go so far. If you’ve experienced something like I have, I reckon you need to take advantage of what the fear has earned you — a daring to speak up, to enjoy the moment. Otherwise, the experience will go to waste. What I’m saying is pretty much in keeping with the idea that Chinese people only do something when they think that it has some kind of actual value or meaning.

Li Yuan: To my mind, what you are saying is completely understandable.

Protester: Yes, indeed, I feel the same way. Since I’ve been through all of that, I might as well give it some real meaning.

Li Yuan: I’m really moved by the way you put it. I rarely express my own emotional responses to things. For the last few days, I’ve been looking for some young people who’d been detained and released by the police so I could speak to them. I wanted to hear about their experiences but, even then, I’ve felt conflicted. I still do, since as I produce this podcast I’m worrying to myself about whether it might get people into trouble — despite the fact that the interviews are anonymous and I’ve masked people’s voices. I have a pile of concerns. In your case, for example, wouldn’t it be relatively easy for them to work out who you are?

Protester: I get the sense that they are focussed on silencing the voices of discontent inside the Great Firewall. If something isn’t broadcast into China then… … What they most care about is whether you might stir up the masses. Like, well, frankly, I’m not all that clear myself. Like I’ve said, I have no experience in struggle.

Li Yuan: And that’s exactly why I’ve been so conflicted. While I appreciate how valuable it is for you to share your experiences with us, and important, too, I simply have no way of knowing what might happen.

So, let me ask you something else — feel free to answer as you wish, it’s entirely up to you: if something like this happens again, another protest of this kind, do you think you’ll get involved?

Protester: I will. That’s in part because I believe that the more people participate, overall the punishments meted out will average out as less per individual. The police do have their limitations, after all. So, rather than letting a small number of people take responsibility for everything that happens, I feel that each of us has ‘my duty’. So, if the opportunity arises, I’ll be going back into the streets.

袁莉：對。我，我真的今天，我聽了那個口號，我真的是鼻頭都酸了。我覺得，哇，這麼基本的要求。嗯，那我再問一下，就比如說你在那天晚上，在烏魯木齊路的那個口號喊的是比較激進的，就最後也「共產黨下台，習近平下台」這樣子，當時你覺得這個是不是過於激進了呢？
受訪者：嗯，我倒也沒有覺得它很激進，但是這個大家敢喊出來，我還覺得蠻驚訝的。就是其實我們心裡也會有這種想法，但是平時在哪裡可能都不太敢說。我呢，我曾經在推特小號上面說，我不喜歡這個國家，然後因為這個事情被微博上的人截出來，大肆說我是恨國黨。
袁莉：唉，其實不是，對不對，你不喜歡國家的那個樣子。
受訪者：對，我希望它能改變，嗯，對，也不是說我恨它。就其實像這次在上街的時候，很多年輕人都在唱國歌，我們是用這個最愛國的方式來表達這個訴求了，已經是。我們都不敢唱國際歌了，唱國際歌的都被說境外勢力。
袁莉：國際歌不是共產黨引進來的嗎？
受訪者：我們唱國歌，就是說起來，要起來。
袁莉：對對對對，嗯。那我能再問一下，就是說你害怕嗎？你有沒有……你出來了以後，這幾天你的精神狀況怎麼樣呢？
受訪者：我還是蠻害怕的，而且我被抓的時候不是發了一條微博說被抓了嗎？然後我們放出來以後睡了一天。第二天的時候有警察上門叫我把那條都給刪掉。這是短時間內就跟他們又打了一次交道，我真的有一點兒精神過敏了。真的不太想再見到警察。
袁莉：你怕敲門嗎，就是說你會有這個精神緊張嗎？
受訪者：嗯，有點。就是這些大動靜呀。
袁莉：那你還是在推特上說，然後你還來跟我做播客，那你不害怕嗎？
受訪者：嗯，我覺得害怕歸害怕，但是如果就已經經歷這些事情了，不去發聲不去分享它的話就是苦也白受了。當然這個有點兒這個中國人做什麼事情都要有意義的感覺。
袁莉：我覺得這是一個正常的訴求。
受訪者：對對對，我是覺得，既然我已經受苦了，我不如去把它變成一件，有意義的事情。
袁莉：嗯，你這麼一說我的鼻頭又了，我，其實我很少會承認這種事情。其實我說句實話，我這兩天都在找，嗯，這種被抓了進去再放出來的年輕人，想知道他們是一個什麼樣的經歷。但是我也是非常矛盾，因為我不知道，和我做了播客，到時候放出去，雖然我們是匿名，到時候會變個聲了，什麼什麼之類的，但是你這個情況可能還是很容易就被查出來的。你覺得呢？
受訪者：嗯，我覺得其實他們就是集中查的是牆內的聲音。就可能如果不往牆內傳的話……他們最在乎的還是你能不能煽動國內的群眾，這樣一些……就是，呃，說實話我也不太清楚，因為沒有什麼鬥爭經驗。
袁莉：對，所以我真的是非常非常矛盾的心理，因為我覺得你的這個分享也是很有意義很重要，我不知道了，就說以後會發生什麼。
呃，我先問你這個，願意回答就回答，不願回答就不用回答。就是說如果再發生，比如說這個週末或者以後，再發生這種抗議活動，你還會去參加嗎？
受訪者：呃，我還會去的。對，嗯，因為這實際上是人越多，就是每個人受到的平均處罰是越少的，因為他們能力也有限嘛。所以與其讓一些少數的人去承擔這個事情，我覺得還是，呃，還是每個人都有一些duty。嗯，如果我有這個機會，我還是會去就是上街什麼的。

Li Yuan: Okay. Then what suggestions do you have for others?

Protester: So, I’d advise people both for their own safety and that of others that they make sure that before the police nab you, delete any non-Mainland apps you might have on your phone, as well as the messages from and contacts of friends who think like you do. That’s because lately in Shanghai, as well as in other cities like Chengdu [in Sichuan], they are checking people’s phones at shopping malls and on the underground to see if they have any non-Mainland apps installed. So, it’s best if you get a cheap burner phone, one that you’re not afraid of having checked. Let them go ahead and do it! Nowadays, you have no other choice … …

Li Yuan: So it really is the ‘Xinjiang-ization’ [of China Proper]. People in Xinjiang have been doing this for years. Some Uyghurs carry a broken down phone whenever they go out and leave their real phones at home.

Protester: Yeah, one account I saw reported things like that. But that’s long gone. I remember trying to tell my mum about the things that were happening in Xinjiang, but she wouldn’t believe me.

Li Yuan: And now here it is happening in Shanghai.

Protester: Exactly. I’ve long been aware that, whatever they do to a select group of people might at some stage be applied to everyone else. But because until now this kind of thing wasn’t going on around them, tons of people simply didn’t believe it [could be happening anywhere].

Li Yuan: Is there anything else that you feel you’d like to share with everyone? I have to admit that, listening to you, for some reason I really feel churned up inside. I’m honestly moved by your bravery and I’m still conflicted about broadcasting our conversation.

Protester: Honestly, I don’t think I’m particularly brave. If I am, it’s only because everyone else has been so brave. I feel that, at the time … … I really didn’t think Shanghai people would chant slogans like that. Then, when I was released after spending twenty-four hours inside, I discovered that similar protests had broken out all over China. I must admit that really moved me. It’s because I’ve long been used to the idea that everyone only cares about looking out for themselves.

Li Yuan: That they were indifferent.

Protester: Exactly. Previously, so many things had happened, but people avoided saying anything about it, that’s why this time it came as such a complete surprise. It’s really given me a sense of hope.

[Note: For more on the theme of protest and hope, see ‘Ironic Points of Light’ — acts of redemption on the blank pages of history, 4 December 2022.]

Li Yuan: Same here. After protesters like you were detained in Shanghai [in the early hours of Monday 28 November] I didn’t think anything else would happen. Then it did, in Shanghai and then in Beijing … …

Protester: That’s right. Previous experience taught us that, as soon as they detain a few people everyone else is cowed into silence. Who’d have guessed that this time around, the voices of protest would become even more vociferous?

Li Yuan: Quite so. Why do you think people have been so daring this time?

Protester: I feel that we really have reached the absolute limit of frustration. People from a whole range of different groups and generations have been denied a normal everyday existence for far too long. Then things like Peng Zaizhou [the ‘Bridge Man’ in Beijing] and the Twentieth Congress of the Communist Party [at which it was confirmed that Xi Jinping would stay in power, perhaps indefinitely] acted like a catalyst. The event in Urumqi [where some ten people died in an apartment fire] was an immediate trigger. It was something that everyone felt really brought it home. Their zero-covid policies and all of the extreme things that have happened under their aegis… people had this sense that anyone could die, or suffer at any moment, and for what?

Li Yuan: Can I ask then, how do you see your future, or rather the future of the country? Do you feel more confident about it now, more optimistic, even? Or just pessimistic?

Protester: It’s really complicated, in part because I know how tragically things ended in 1989. I can’t say that I feel confident that we can change things, or change the way those in power see the world. So I guess it’s going to be a very long struggle. But for now it’s great to see how many people are willing to resist. Resistance is the first step.

Li Yuan: That’s really well put. I really feel a sense of gratitude to you all. You have all been a ray of light in the darkness.

Protester: I really hope the darkness ends soon.

Li Yuan: Yes, many people of my age, many of my friends were moved to tears by what happened. Really, last weekend everyone obsessively watched the video clips [of protests in cities and at universities throughout China] that were constantly being posted. One friend was completely fixated watching videos all day from six thirty in the morning, crying all the while.

Protester: Your support also means a lot.

Li Yuan: We’ve really been deeply moved. Thank you, really, thank you so much.

Protester: I thank you, too.

[Note: See also Li Yuan, Proud, Scared and Conflicted. What the China Protesters Told Me., The New York Times, 29 November 2022.]

袁莉：嗯，那你對大家有什麼建議呢？
受訪者：那肯定是如果你被警察抓了，就是把手機上的外網軟件，然後身邊比較可能想法比較近的朋友，就是先刪一下，就是為大家的安危著想。然後就是，就現在因為上海或者就很多城市，成都也有，會在商場和地鐵里查你手機上有沒有這個外網軟件。所以可能準備一個備用手機吧，就是便宜點也可以，然後就是專門給他們查的，他們要查就查。唉，現在也是這個沒有辦法……。
袁莉：就變成新疆化了。新疆人已經很多年是這樣子的。有一些維族人，他們自己用的手機一般都不帶出去的，出門帶一個壞手機出門。
受訪者：噢，好像我有一個號是轉這些事情沒了。
受訪者：對，他們這些新疆這個事，當時我告訴我媽，她還不信。
袁莉：你看，現在已經在上海發生了。
受訪者：是呀，就是我一直就是覺得，他這個能對一部分人做，就總歸可能對所有人做。就是很多人不相信，可能只是沒有發生在他們身上。
袁莉：嗯，你還有什麼你覺得需要，想要和大家分享的。就是我，我聽到你說的都心裡面特別酸，我不知道為什麼。我真的是覺得你太勇敢，我還是很矛盾就說我們要不要播這個。
受訪者：我，我覺得自己也不算勇敢吧。就是因為現在大家都很勇敢。我覺得，呃，我當時……一開始我也沒有想到上海的大家能喊這麼激進的口號。後來我這個24小時才出去後，發現全國都有這樣的活動，然後我當時真的蠻感動的。因為我已經習慣了大家都比較自保的一個心態。
袁莉：比較冷漠的。
受訪者：嗯，對對，是之前很多事情，都是大家也不太願意出來發聲，所以這次真的很意外，然後就覺得這個還是蠻充滿希望。
袁莉：對，本來就是覺得，那天早上就是把你們抓了進去以後，我還以為就是上海肯定不會有什麼了，沒想到說上海、北京……
受訪者：對對，我們的經驗就是來說，有一些人被抓進去以後，大家可能就會被嚇的不再發聲了，沒想到這次發聲發得更凶了。
袁莉：對。你覺得為什麼大家會變得這麼勇敢呢？
受訪者：我覺得可能真的是到一個被壓抑的臨界點了，就是各個年齡段的人可能都已太久沒有正常的生活過，然後也可能有最近這個彭載舟啊，還有20大這些事情作為催化劑，然後還有就是肯定是有烏魯木齊這個事情，就是大家切身看到了很多人因為，呃，現在政策啊，清零，然後就是以很離譜的方式，可能去世啊，受苦啊，這是完全沒有必要的事情。
袁莉：嗯，我想問一下你現在對你的未來，或者對這個國家的未來，你是更有信心了呢？還是更樂觀了呢？還是更悲觀？
受訪者：我心情蠻複雜的，其實。因為其實像89年，最後結局也挺慘烈的，就是。我覺得我沒有自信說我們可以改變，就是上面的人的認知啊，或者什麼的，可能這個鬥爭還是蠻長時間的一個事情。但是，我覺得就是能看到大家都有反抗的意識，我覺得還是很好的一件事情，因為反抗總要有個開始。
袁莉：嗯，嗯，說的真好。我覺得你們……真的謝謝你們。你們讓我在黑暗中看到了一點點亮光。
受訪者：希望黑暗還是能早點結束。
袁莉：對，我們這個年紀的，我的好多朋友都哭得不得了啊。就是真的是，他們上個週末都是看著你那些視頻，就是我一個朋友說，他從早上6點半起來就在那兒看視頻，就哭，哭了好幾個小時。
受訪者：我覺得你們的支持也很重要。
袁莉：真的，真的很感動。就是謝謝你，非常非常的感謝。
受訪者：也謝謝你。

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Source:

• 袁莉, 那些年輕的抗議者：被捕之後（文字版）, 不明白播客, 2022年12月9日

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